Joined: Dec 2004 Gender: Female Posts: 100 Location: .......Look a inu-youkai Karma: 1
Re: History: Bible VS. Science « Reply #31 on Sept 12, 2007, 12:02am »
I got this on my myspace and find it very interesting.
God vs Science
A science professor begins his school year with a lecture to the students, "Let me explain the problem science has with religion." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.
"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"
"Yes sir," the student says.
"So you believe in God?"
"Absolutely."
"Is God good?"
"Sure! God's good."
"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
"Yes."
"Are you good or evil?"
"The Bible says I'm evil."
The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"
"Yes sir, I would."
"So you're good...!"
"I wouldn't say that."
"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't."
The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"
The student remains silent.
"No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.
"Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"
"Er...yes," the student says.
"Is Satan good?"
The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."
"Then where does Satan come from?"
The student falters. "From God"
"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"
"Yes, sir."
"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?"
"Yes."
"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."
Again, the student has no answer. "Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?"
The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."
"So who created them?"
The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. "Who created them?" There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"
The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor, I do."
The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"
"No sir. I've never seen Him."
"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"
"No, sir, I have not."
"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?"
"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
"Yet you still believe in him?"
"Yes."
"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"
"Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith."
"Yes, faith," the professor repeats. "And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith."
The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"
"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."
"And is there such a thing as cold?"
"Yes, son, there's cold too."
"No sir, there isn't."
The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees."
"Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."
Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.
"What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?"
"Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't darkness?"
"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word."
"In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?"
The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. "So what point are you making, young man?"
"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed."
The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you explain how?"
"You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought."
"It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it."
"Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"
"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."
"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"
The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.
"Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"
The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.
"To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean."
The student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out into laughter.
"Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir."
"So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?"
Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.
Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. "I guess you'll have to take them on faith."
"Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?"
Now uncertain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."
To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."
The professor sat down.
This students statements are true, can you or can you not make night darker?
Is it possible for it to get colder after absolute zero -458 degree's F.
Cloud Global Moderator Death Dealer member is offline
Joined: Aug 2003 Gender: Male Posts: 1,312 Location: in your head... Karma: 0
Re: History: Bible VS. Science « Reply #33 on Sept 15, 2007, 6:25pm »
That was quite interesting in its simplicity. Of course I found several loopholes in the arguments of the teacher and the students throughout, but they made their point. However, there really is no way of knowing what is true and what isn't; all religions are basically down to just faith. Yes, people try to present their theories and evidence of what is right and wrong but there is no true way of knowing as of now...and thus both sides can be argued endlessly as they have been for the past millennium
Re: History: Bible VS. Science « Reply #37 on Oct 2, 2007, 4:55am »
Thinking is simply the abstract thought bringing idea's to your head.
The Arguement "I think therefore I am" Was created for us to know we exist and are simply not just thoughts in someone elses head, figures of imagination. As long as we think, we exist.
and to Rosebuds comment about the Maxtrix... Correct.
Our logical sense is rational thoughts of the brain, yes? But our rational thoughts are based on experiences with our 5 senses. A newborn child must first see the world through it's senses to develop a sense of logic about it.
If we were to take a newborn child, sow it's eyes together, fill it's ears and mouth and nose with liquid led and dip it in glue we would eliminate it's 5 senses and therefore not allow to it to develop a sense of logics. It would not be able to describe anything, know anything, have rational formed thoughts of any kind.
But this also means that by tricking a persons senses you can decieve their logics. Lets take the matrix as an example. You are hooked up to a giant machine that makes your brain think that the other world you are in is real, and why is it not? Your senses work in there, so your logical thoughts can't tell you that world is not real.
All this means there's a flaw in humans rational thoughts. And it can easily be tricked into thinking something is there which is not or the other way around.
Although to take up the entire bible vs science debate again. There is one arguement I'm fond of a very ancient one proving that God is incapable of being Omnipotent.
Lets see if I remember all details.
One of the main teachings of Christianity is free will? Correct? Good. But also that God is Omnipotent.
For God to be Omnipotent, almighty, allknowing, he must have the ability see into the future, yes? To see all choices that one will make in life and if they choose a path of good or evil.
Now my question is this, how can there be freewill if there's already a future to see? How can you make choices when they have already been made?
If you choose the path of Good, God has already seen it and therefore it was not a free choice but one destined to you by birth.
But both can exist at the same time you say? God can see the future and be omnipotent and man can have free will? To that I say no.
Because God is Omnipotent his visions are never wrong, he will never see anything that does not come true. For free will to still be there some of his visions would have to be wrong or it would still just have been a destined path. But since God is Omnipotent he can not be wrong.
Therefore a big flaw with christianity lies in the blind faith in free will and an Omnipotent God. Logic dictates that both can not be.
I should really watch this board more often, I see i've fallen behind on a few posts.
Joined: Aug 2007 Gender: Male Posts: 138 Location: ...look behind you. Karma: 2
Re: History: Bible VS. Science « Reply #38 on Oct 6, 2007, 4:46pm »
I have some issues with your logic there Zero. One that outweighs all the others.
That is your observation of time. I believe that to us, time is flowing constantly. The "future" becomes the present, the present becomes the past, and the past moves on into the negative infinity of "eternity". That is precisely what I want to talk about eternity.
eternity - infinite or unending time.
For us, time is moving, changing, etc. To God - who is indeed all powerful. There is no sense of movement. To him time IS. There is no future, for he is there the same as he is here, the present - which is the same as he was in the past. There is no change in Him over the course of eternity. There is free will, but why can he not see what we will decide ourselves?
If I were to ask you to pick a number between one or two, and I guessed that you would say one - and you did... does that remove the fact that you decided? No. Just because he can foretell the outcome of our decisions cumulatively does not mean that we do not make those decisions. He knows us better than we know ourselves, so he has the ability. Time is standard to him.
A slight analogy - though not completely what I'm trying to say.... as you watch a movie, you follow the plot from beginning to end. You follow the characters through their story, correct? Things happen, stuff changes, time passes in their fictional world - often much more quickly than ours, years can be spanned in a single fade out & fade in. So we can "know" what happens over their time in a matter of hours while it would take that character in their fictional univers, years. Furthermore, after watching the movie you know the plot (or if you have a memory you do). Right? So let's say that you watch it again - you can know what will happen. This is because to you - you know the story without the need to follow the plot to. You could (if you remember, which God has no problem doing) you would be able to go to any point in the movie and know what the character in question is about to do, about to decide - but ultimately you are not making the decision for them, are you? No.
So in conclusion - I believe that God knows us well enough, and has a different perception of time, that together he has no need to see the "future" like we reference it, and ultimately knows us well enough to see what we will decide.
I'm more than willing to continue discussing the idea of time and how that interlocks with the ideas of God and His omnipotence.
Cloud Global Moderator Death Dealer member is offline
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Re: History: Bible VS. Science « Reply #39 on Oct 7, 2007, 9:51am »
This is where both of your arguments are getting a little hazy. You speak of Christianity in general and yet there literally hundreds of sects of Christianity, all intertwining but at the same time having slight to drastic variations between each other. Take, for instance, Calvinism; believers of this form of Christianity actually DO believe in predestination and a lack of free will. Some Christians believe in a strict interpretation of the Bible while others believe in a loose one, and so on. You must first know what you are refuting before you refute it.
Re: History: Bible VS. Science « Reply #40 on Oct 8, 2007, 8:28am »
Ah, I apologize, I am speaking catholism but overall just describing the problem with religions that involve an omnious being and free will at the same time by using Cicero's arguements.
Darthnerdus, I'll come back with an arguement later to your post. But I lack the time at the moment to sit down and write anything sophisticated that takes more than 5 seconds to write. So It might be some time before I can come back to you.
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